Whitney Simon (WS): Welcome to Missive's Seat at the Table podcast, where I, Whitney Simon, sit down with guests spanning PR, tech, DE&I, and more to unpack complex DE&I topics that typically get overlooked. 

Today, I'm so excited to have Son Pham, senior manager of integrated campaigns at Manifest Group, to talk about the importance of multi-generational workforces. 

Son, if you wouldn't mind just telling us a bit about yourself, your position at Manifest, what brought you to Manifest, that'd be great. 

Son Pham (SP): I'm currently a manager working on integrated campaigns at global brand communication agency, Manifest. I'm also a freelance business journalist with bylines on Raconteur. 

I'm also an editor of my PR website called son-talks.com, where I'm sharing all the insights and opinions about PR, communication, the creative industry, but also culture and pop culture overall. 

WS: Amazing. And I love your content. I think what I've noticed recently is that we're seeing a lot more content that talks about the immersion of pop culture and work culture. 

There was a period of time before COVID where all of these things felt very separate, whereas now we're seeing how mental health, wellness, you know, just making things entertaining, connecting with your clients is something that people are trying to embrace. Because as we're talking about, we do need to engage with different generations, and they respond to things differently. 

So, I guess just before we dig into the crux of the multi-generational workforce, I know one of the things that we talked about is just how in the short time that you've been in London, and working at Manifest, you have accrued so many accolades. You are a well-known person within the industry. 

So, I guess just for some of our listeners, those who are entering a creative industry, what are some top tips from yourself in terms of how people can break into creative industries such as PR? 

SP: Thank you so much. Firstly, I just want to say you are too kind. So, I came to the UK, like, 4 and a half years ago to do my master's degree in PR communication and all of that good stuff. And then I moved to London for the job at Manifest two and a half years ago. When I first came to the UK, I had no knowledge about the PR industry, no contacts, or no network. 

A lot of the time I had to, not to sound corny, but I had to make a name for myself and put myself out there and to network with wonderful people in the industry to have that network, have that contact, and push myself into the industry and all that. 

So, it's been a journey, and it's amazing to see that fruit of the labour. And the wonderful effort has been appreciated by the industry and by brilliant colleagues across the industry. 

WS: I love what you said about all of that hard work that you've put in. It's coming to fruition, and I am excited and also really hopeful about the future of the industry with having people like yourself in it who are looking at things from a different perspective and just bringing a fresh take. 

I think that's something, even in creative industries, you don't think enough about, and it is one of the reasons why I established Seat at the Table. I think oftentimes, we have the view and the perspective of, you know, the majority, but we need to recognise that it's the diversity of people, experiences, backgrounds that truly creates the strongest creative campaigns.  

I guess, on that point, we can jump into the bread and butter of this podcast. One of the reasons why I want to talk about multi-generational workforces is my old millennial self is recognising how the culture when I entered PR is completely different in terms of workplace expectations now. We have a lot of younger folks that are coming into the workforce in PR, but in broader industries as well. 

We also have people who are older, numerous things like that, that are also coming back into the workforce. And I think what I've noticed amongst my peers and what I've noticed even amongst clients is that it is creating a bit of a difficulty in terms of understanding what these generations expect from an employer, what success looks like for them, how work plays into their day-to-day life. I think it's been really humbling for me to have to rethink about how I engage and how I manage and mentor people from different generations. 

It's really important for business leaders in PR, in wider industries to take a really hard look at how can we create cultures that are inclusive to all these different generations. Right now, with Gen Z in particular, you know, work for them is a way of actualising their purpose, the things that they want to do. 

The whole mantra of working yourself into the ground 9 to 5, that's something that doesn't resonate with them as much. But how can we harness that purpose-led view to really get the greatest work that we can out of them? And then how can we do the same for other generations? 

So, on that point, I would love to hear from you, what are some of the different generations that you're seeing currently represented in the PR workforce. And, you know, not to stereotype, but what are some of those core traits that you see within each of those groups? 

SP: Yes. Definitely. I think, from my experience, I've seen baby boomers, generation x, millennials, and, of course, like Gen Z as myself or Zillenial, which I'm sure we can talk about that later. But I think there are a lot of, as you mentioned, a lot of differences between them or some, like, cultures that define them. 

So, for example, a lot of the time, people say, oh, Gen-Z are so lazy. They only work from 9 to 5. But I also think these are stereotypes. And, also, we need understanding about different generations to make our workforce a better place and also more inclusive. 

WS: No. That makes sense. And just for those of us, I'm speaking for myself, who might not be familiar with the term "Zillenial", could you just define what age group that falls within? 

SP: Zillenial, there are a lot of definitions, and also, definitions about millennials and Gen-Z. So, I was born, not to reveal my age, but I was born in 1997. So, it is, like, on the cusp of millennial and Gen-Z. Some websites might say that Gen-Z were born from 1996 to 2012. 

Some websites might say that they're born from 1997 to 2012. That's where the term Zillenial comes from. 

WS: That's super helpful. One thing that I'm really passionate about is talking about intersectionality and talking about the nuances and, you know, just different traits. So, whether it's race, gender, things like that. 

But I think even when we're thinking about different generations, it's helpful to think about those nuances as well, that, you know, it's not black and white. There is some grey area, and we also need to take that into consideration as well. 

SP: I definitely agree. I think Zillenial represents those who adopt characteristics of both generations, millennial and Gen-Z, but also rebel against them at the same time. I read the other day on The Atlantic that nearly half of Britain finds labels such as millennial or Gen-Z to be, like, unacceptable because they do not find the term reflects their personality. 

WS: That's incredibly interesting. And I guess, yeah, it speaks to a larger issue about the pitfalls of labels. It's helpful when we want a quick and dirty way of understanding people, but it is very surface level. So, that's a really good point. 

I guess, you talked a bit about some of the other generations that are represented within or in your experience in the PR workforce. 

What are some traits of millennials specifically or baby boomers that you've encountered? 

SP: I guess, millennials are digital natives who have grown up with technology. You know, they have Apple, Microsoft, all of that good stuff. And, also, they are adept at leveraging digital tools and social media platforms. And, also, they value collaborative frameworks and often prefer open office environments and frequent feedback. 

Speaking for myself, for Gen-Z, I think we are truly digital natives. We have grown up in a highly connected world, which makes us fluent in social media platforms, but also adept at creating engaging digital content. 

I don't want to make a generalisation, but those would be characteristics that I encounter with. For generation X, for example, I think they really value independence and work-life balance. While they are not truly digital natives, they are comfortable with technology and have adapted to it. Especially, you know, within the PR industry itself, we have to constantly adapt ourselves. 

WS: That's a really great point. I guess when thinking about fostering an age-inclusive environment that takes into account Gen-Zs, Zillennials, millennials, baby boomers. Why do you think that it's proven challenging for some PR organisations or the industry as a whole to create those spaces? 

SP: Yeah. I think because we are working in such a high-speed industry, sometimes we forget to take a moment or take a step back to evaluate those generational differences. And I guess one of the reasons that it has been proving challenging for PR organisations, but also the PR industry as a whole, is that we have implicit biases or generational differences, but also that perceived generation gap. 

So, for example, PR leaders and organisations may perceive generational differences as a barrier for collaboration or productivity rather than an opportunity for learning and growth. And I think this mindset creates a division between generations. A quick Google search, you can see a lot of articles talking about stereotypes of Gen-Z and, or, stereotypes of baby boomers. 

We need to have open collaboration to, like, move forward and make the industry better and more inclusive. 

WS: Those are some really fantastic points. Even thinking outside of PR and the PR industry, I think that's an issue that a lot of industry leaders face. It's really difficult to understand how to engage with others or collaborate with others when they come at work and creativity in a completely different way as a result of how they've come up, how they grew up, what access they had to different things. 

So, I think that's a really important point for business leaders to think about just taking the time to reflect on what are the differences amongst my workforces. 

What does someone who is 25, new into the industry, what do they need to be productive and effective in their role versus someone who is 35, 36, who has been in the industry for a while? And what are the tools and resources and things that I can do to create a space where they can collaborate effectively. 

So, we touched on this a little bit in the previous question, but in your experience, what are some of the biggest misconceptions about certain generations in the workplace and PR? 

SP: Yes. So, I think I can always speak for myself, Gen-Z. 

A lot of the time, people have the whole debate on LinkedIn, for example, the other day about how Gen-Z lacks commitment and also loyalty and also how we are separating ourselves from the 9 to 5 routine, which makes it seem we are not committed to the work. 

That's the biggest misconception for me. 

WS: That is an interesting point. I think when it comes to the corporate industry, there's a lot of language around, we want to see loyalty, we want to see commitment. And quite frankly, looking over the course of the past year in terms of, like, tech layoffs, I think there's something to be said about questioning what does loyalty and what does commitment really look like. 

While it might be difficult for business leaders to recognise that, I think we need to reframe our thinking about what commitment looks like. What does loyalty look like? Does it look like burning out? Does it look like constantly overworking? Or does it look like being honest and forthcoming about your boundaries and where you want to contribute and how you want to contribute. 

So, I think that's a really great point. 

SP: We are currently working in a system that is working against us. So, a lot of people I know, 40 years ago, they could work 9 to 5. They were able to afford a house, buy a nice car. But I think for us at the moment, especially, I'm in my 20s, living in London, working in the PR industry, that doesn't seem reachable. 

So, I think separating ourselves from that 9 to 5 routine, so we are able to fulfil our life, fulfil our missions and values and all of that. As well, I think that's a good one to, like, keep in mind when we're talking about different generations. 

WS: I really love that because I do think as though the world of 40 years ago is completely different to the world now, and I do think that COVID has been a major catalyst in how people, regardless of generation, want to engage with work. We want to be doing work that is meaningful, that is impactful, that is going to move the needle forward, and I think that given this overall shift in mindset, business leaders need to think about that as well and need to start thinking about how can I create a workplace that takes into account that 9 to 5 isn't the standard for effectiveness and productivity? 

We can build a successful business that is more flexible, that takes into account people's different situations, people's different styles of working. 

So, I think that's a really powerful, powerful reflection. 

Son, I'd love to get some insights from you in terms of what do you think, based on your experience, of course, millennials or Gen-Z or Zillennials, as you've educated us on, what do you think that they want from their organisational leaders, whether in agency or in broader businesses? 

SP: To promote a diverse and inclusive work thought, I think we love open collaboration. I think the CIPR has this wonderful scheme, a reverse mentoring programme. I think everyone can learn from each other. 

So, yeah, I could definitely say that open communication to ensure and encourage open and transparent communication among team members within their generation. So, like communication and transparency and honesty. We all have something to learn from each other. So, I think that's one of the key things that I would love to see PR leaders promote across their businesses. 

WS: I love that bit that you said there, we all have something to learn from each other, and I think that's so true. I have learned so much from some of the younger Gen-Z folks within my agency and also just within my wider community. 

Son, you referenced in your last response, CIPR's reverse mentoring scheme. And for those who aren't aware, CIPR is a PR industry body that does a lot of different learning and things like that to help move the industry forward. But one of the things that they have is a reverse mentoring scheme, which I think applies to, or could be helpful, to business leaders across industries 

Son, do you just want to talk a bit more about what reverse mentoring schemes involve and why it could be beneficial? 

SP: I think, lots of the time when we talk about mentoring schemes, it could be senior members mentoring junior members. But I think with the reverse mentoring scheme, it supports this progressive learning as senior leaders are paired with junior members, and they can learn from each other. 

WS: You're right. There is something to be said about learning from younger generations, people from different backgrounds. I think the onus is often on length of time in an industry, and that's what people equate with expert insights with, you know, learning that needs to be passed down. 

But I think there's an opportunity to reframe that thinking and have a more equal exchange of learnings between senior people, more junior people, people of different ages, people of different races, and I think that's really helpful in diversifying how we look at things. 

So, what advice would you give to PR leaders and expanding that to business leaders in terms of developing strong inter-generational relationships, creating more understanding and collaboration within multi-generational teams? 

SP: The first thing would definitely be training and education on generational differences. We touched on a bit earlier about similarities, differences, but also the stereotypes of different generations. I think by offering that training and educational resources to have employees better understand those differences and similarities, but also the dynamics in the workplace. 

I think as we talk about this open dialogue, we can all learn from each other. And I think the second point I would mention is the feedback and adaptations. A lot of the time, I'm quite open to receiving that solid feedback from team members on their experiences or perceptions of inter-generational relationships within the agency. 

So, yeah, I would say, firstly, education and training. Second is the feedback and adaptation, and the last one could be the reverse mentoring scheme that we touched on earlier. 

WS: That's fantastic. I think you're right. And, actually, I've been having increasing conversations about feedback and the role that feedback plays in terms of helping us move the needle forward and having some of these crucial conversations. 

It can often feel like feedback is one directional coming from the top down, and I think we need to create more spaces within businesses where it truly is coming from all directions, top down, bottom up, so that we can actually have conversations about what needs to change and do that work. 

In terms of, from an agency perspective, how do you think that agencies and, like, managers within agencies can better support an integrated social culture across ages? 

SP: Yeah. I think a lot of the time in the PR industry, I'm sure you know that when we talk about diversity and inclusion, a lot of the time, we talk about race or gender, but we, talk a lot about neurodiversity or intercultural or intergeneration, for example. 

So, I think within the PR industry, we should encourage people to evaluate where the diversity and inclusion agenda comes from, but also should move forward too. 

WS: I think you're right. I think there is a lot of focus on race and gender. 

And, in an effort to be more intersectional, we need to think about those facets or those attributes that are wider than that. So, neurodiversity is a really great point. Talking about socioeconomic class, which is a major thing within the UK culture, I think you're right. Those are conversations that we need to have and think about more broadly, so it doesn't feel as though the conversations we're having in DE&I are just very one note. So, I think that's a really great point. 

It's been really fantastic talking to you, Son, about what business leaders can think about when it comes to fostering an inclusive and inter-generational workforce. 

In terms of the last question for the podcast, just want to get your take on why age diversity is important for factors like innovation and cultural adaptation. I know in your last response; you made the really great point that we need to expand our thinking outside of just race and gender when it comes to DE&I. 

Why do you think age diversity is something that we need to talk more about when it comes to workplace culture and making sure that it is truly inclusive?  

SP: Yeah. I think, firstly, with age comes wisdom. So, it makes business sense. Also, as I mentioned before, I'm in my 20s living in London. So, I might not have that disposable income. A lot of the time, brands kind of like Gen-z, but they are, I think, forgetting about the older generation for people who are over 40, over 50. 

If you look at the industry, or the overall culture, a lot of the time, we've seen 30 under 30, 40 under 40, but people who are over 50 are overlooked.  

So, I think we need to reframe our thinking and target all the audiences, like, equally. 

WS: I think that's a really great point, and it's a really great way to end off this talk. I think you're right. We only know so much. 

Obviously, what's great about having a diversity of people within a workplace is that there is diversity of experiences. But to really move the needle forward and take it from having a diverse work force to creating an inclusive culture is giving the space to have the conversations about it, to learn more, to ask questions. And I think there isn't enough of that yet in businesses. 

So, I think one of the key takeaways that I've taken from this conversation is encouraging business leaders to have those forums within their organisations, to have questions where people from different backgrounds, specifically from different generations, can ask questions, talk about the things that they need, provide feedback on where the business can be better in terms of fostering that inclusive multi-generational workforce. 

It's been really fantastic talking to you and getting your perspective. This has been fantastic. 

SP: No. Thanks so much for having me. It's been a pleasure.